Election: Fact or Fiction

Ephesians 1

Alan Lewis
Elon, North Carolina
November 2018

Last week, we began our study in the Book of Ephesians, one of the greatest letters Paul ever wrote.  We said that the first three chapters are all doctrinal.  The last three chapters are all practical.  We are in the doctrinal section.  Today, we are going to slow down a little bit and focus on one doctrine in this chapter.

Ephesians 1 is one of the most important passages on election in the entire NT.  We have to begin with a warning.  Today, we are going to go deep. This chapter is deep.  It deals with advanced material.  We are dealing with meat, not milk in this chapter.

We are going to look at one of the most controversial doctrines in the church today. Christians are split over this doctrine.  Not just Christians, but churches are divided over this doctrine.  In fact, entire denominations come down on different sides of this question.  There are entire denominations on both sides of the issue, with Wesleyans on one side and Presbyterians on the other.

It is not a salvation issue.  You can be a Calvinist and go to heaven.  You can be an Arminian and go to heaven.  There are godly people on both sides.  We can still fellowship with one another, even though we don’t agree with everything in Scripture.  You may not agree with everything I believe.  I may not agree with everything you believe, but we can still have unity.

George Whitfield and John Wesley were famous evangelists in the 1700s.  They were both preachers.  Both were Methodists. They had their disagreements.  They had some theological differences.  Wesley was an Arminian.  Wesley hated the doctrine of predestination.  He called it “blasphemy.” Whitfield was a staunch Calvinist.

On a personal note, they were close friends.  In fact, Whitfield asked Wesley to preach the sermon at his memorial service.  Wesley preached at three memorial services for Whitfield in London in 1770.

Whitfield was asked if he would see John Wesley in Heaven.  He said, “No.  He will be in the front and I will be way in the back.  He will be so close to the throne.  I will be so far away that I will not be able to see him.”

We are going to look at the doctrine of election in Ephesians 1.  Many do not like this doctrine.  In fact, some hate it. It is the most hated doctrine in the Bible, among some Christians.  Many Christians do not believe what Paul says in Ephesians 1.  They act like the word ‘predestination” is a curse word.

If you talk to some Christians, they will say, “You do not believe in predestination, do you?  You are not one of those Christians?”  Of course, I am and you should too.  I believe in predestination, because it is in the Bible.

If you do not believe in predestination, then you do not believe the Bible.  this doctrine was not started by Augustine or Calvin.  It comes right out of the Bible. It is biblical.

Paul uses the word “predestinate” two times in Romans (Romans 8:29, 30) and two times in Ephesians (Ephesians 1:5, 11). That is strange.  Was Paul a Calvinist?

He PREDESTINATED us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will (Ephesians 1:5 ESV)

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been PREDESTINED according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will (Ephesians 1:11 ESV)

Calvinists read this passage one way.  Arminian read this passage a completely different way.  Who is right?

Here is the problem.  Most people come to the text with all kinds of biases and assumptions.  We assume that we know what the passage says before we even read it.  We do not read it to see what it says but to prove what we already believe.  That is what most Christians do.  Today, we want to do three things.

First, we will look at what Ephesians 1 teaches about election.  It teaches five things. Second, we will look at some objections to election.  Third, we will look at applications.  We will see how this all applies to us today.  Let’s begin by reading Paul’s statement about election.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he CHOSE US in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he PREDESTINATED US for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV)

Five Facts About Election

Five things are clear from Ephesians 1 about election.  Five things can be proven from this passage.

1. Election involves a SELECTION

He CHOSE US in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. Paul says that we were chosen.  The Greek word for “chose’ is ἐκλέγομαι.  It means to pick out or choose something.

The same word is used of Jesus who CHOSE the Twelve Apostles (Luke 6:13).  He could have picked anyone but selected twelve particular people.  It is used of the Church of Jerusalem who CHOSE seven deacons (Acts 6:5).

In the Book of Acts, Paul and Barnabas got into an argument and they parted ways.  Acts 15:40 says that Paul CHOSE Silas to be his ministry partner and it is the same word.  The Greek word is also used in the OT.  Lot and Abraham got into an argument and Abraham let him have anything he wanted to keep the peace.  We are told that Lot CHOSE Sodom (Genesis 13:11) and it is the same word.

What is significant about this first point?  Election involved as selection and the selection involved people.  God’s people were chosen.  Everyone was not chosen.  Only some people were chosen.  This month, we just had an election.  When you went to vote, you did not note for everybody.  You voted for certain people on the ballot.

2. The selection was made BY GOD

HE chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. Many today read Ephesians 1 and say it is a passage about us choosing God but that is not what the passage says.  This verse does not say that we chose God.  It says that He chose us.

We just had an election.  After all, we love our right to vote. Every four years Americans go to the polls and cast their ballots for a presidential candidate.  God held an election but He as the only one who got to vote.  This was God’s election day.

Many do NOT believe that God chooses people. They only believe that we choose Him.  God chose us.  He chose Him.  They believe that God chose Christ and WE CHOOSE whether to be in Christ but that is not what the verse says.  It says that He chose US, not that He chose Christ.

He chose us.  He chose him.  He chose her.  He chose you.  You can personalize it.  Put your name in there.  God chose Anne.  He chose Sammy.  He chose Gary.

3. This selection was made BEFORE creation

HE chose us in him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and blameless before him. This is important.  He did not choose us after we chose Him or even after we existed.  He chose us before the world began.  He chose us before Genesis 1:1. He chose us before there was a universe.  This was a pre-creation election.

C.H. Spurgeon used to joke that it was good that God chose him before the foundation of the world because he would never have chosen him afterwards.

Let’s put these together.  Before you chose God, He chose you.  As John Piper said, “Your salvation did not begin with your choice to believe in Christ—a choice which was real and necessary. Your salvation began before the creation of the universe when God planned the history of redemption, ordained the death and the resurrection of his Son, and chose you to be his own through Christ.”[1]

Now many read this passage differently.  They read it, “Before the foundation of the world, God KNEW you” but that is not what the verse says.  It says, “Before the foundation of the world, God CHOSE you.”  What did he choose you for?

4. This selection was for SALVATION

This is where many have a problem.  Many have no problem with the word “predestination” but they do not believe in predestination TO SALVATION.  The passage does not say that He chose us to salvation.

It looks like Ephesians 1 is dealing with a predestination to holiness, not a predestination to heaven, because Paul says, “He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him” (Ephesians 1:4 ESV).

However, it is very clear that this predestination for salvation.  He did not just choose us.  He chose us IN CHRIST.  What does that mean?  Those who are in Christ are saved.

Those who are not in Christ are lost.  We know that from Romans 5.  Everyone is either “in Christ” or “in Adam” (saved or lost).  This group was chosen to be in Christ and they were chosen before they were born.

If that is not clear, read the next verse.  He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will (Ephesians 1:5 ESV).

Predestination is for adoption to put us into the family of God.  It is a choice to make us sons and daughters of God.  Other passages say the same thing.

II Thessalonians 2:13 says, “But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God CHOSE you FOR SALVATION through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth” (NIV).

The Christians at Thessalonica (like the ones at Ephesus) were also chosen for salvation and that took place “from the beginning,” which is very similar to “before the foundation of the world” in Ephesians 1:4.

Acts 13:48 says, “When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were APPOINTED FOR ETERNAL LIFE believed” (NIV).  The KJV reads “ordained to eternal life.”  The NLT reads, “all who were chosen to eternal life became believers.”

Now, let’s compare this to something else taught in Scripture. The Bible teaches that on Judgment Day, God will open a book, a literal book.  If your name is not in that book, you will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:15).

How do you get put in the book?  When you believe, does God then put your name in the book?  The Bible says that people’s names were put in the book BEFORE the foundation of the world (Revelation 17:8).

5. This selection was NOT based on works

Some believe that were chosen because of something WE DID.  They believe that God chose us because of OUR FAITH.  He knew we were going to believe and so He chose us but that is not what the text says.

God did not choose us because we were worthy.  He did not choose us because we were holy.  In fact, the text says, “He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, THAT WE SHOULD BE HOLY and blameless before him.”  He did not choose us because we were holy.  He chose us to make us holy.  It was an election to salvation and salvation is to lead to holiness.

This election is also “according to the purpose of HIS WILL” (Ephesians 1:5).  The focus here is on “the mystery of HIS WILL” (Ephesians 1:9).  The focus is not on our will.  Election in this chapter is based on God’s free will, not our free will.  We were not even alive yet.

Election is “to the praise of HIS glorious grace.”  Paul says that three times in this chapter (Ephesians 1:6, 12, 14). If it was based on something we did, election would bring praise to US.  We would get the glory.  This election brings praise to God.  It is an election of grace, not works.

Elections has nothing to do with merit.  It had nothing to do with good works.  It was all about grace.  Salvation is BY GRACE (Ephesians 2:8).  Election is BY GRACE (Romans 11:5-6).

Objections to Predestination

1. If you believe in election, you do not believe in free will

If it is all predetermined, if God chooses your fate, there is no room for free will.  I do not have any choice in the matter.  Is that true?  No.  the problem is that many people only believe half of the Bible.

That is a big problem.  The Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah because they only believed half of the Bible.  They believed the promises about a glorified messiah but not the promises of a suffering messiah.

In fact, on Easter Sunday, Jesus had a conversation with two disciples who had the same problem.  Jesus said to them, “O fools and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken” (Luke 24:25 KJV).  Some Christians only believe the verses about predestination.

Some Christians only believe the verses about free will.  People say, “If I go to hell, it is not my fault.  I was not one of the elect.”  That is only reading half of the Bible.  The Bible teaches divine sovereignty and human freedom. You cannot use predestination as an excuse not to believe.  You cannot use it as an excuse not to get saved.

That is taking only half of the Bible. Some believe in predestination but not free will.  Some believe in free will but not predestination.  We need to believe both.  Both are biblical.

2. If you believe in election, you do not believe in evangelism

If you believe in election, there is no reason to tell anybody about Jesus, because they will be saved anyway.  The objection is just as ridiculous.  Ephesians 1 was written by a missionary.  What is the answer to this one?

Predestination results in salvation.  It leads to salvation.  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified (Romans 8:30 ESV).  Jesus said, “All those the Father gives me will come to me” (John 6:37 NIV).

Many think that God predestinates people.  He chooses them, but we make the final call.  We decide whether to choose Him.  It all boils down to us but everyone predestined will be saved, not some of them or most of them.  Everyone predestined will be saved but predestination is not salvation.

The elect were chosen by God for salvation but they weren’t saved yet.  In fact, when He chose them, they did not even exist yet.  They weren’t born.  There had to be a planet for them to live on. They had to be born on the planet and then come to faith before they actually got saved.

Paul says, “I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory” (I Timothy 2:10 ESV).

The elect do not have salvation yet.  They are not justified yet.  They still have to get saved.  They still have to be evangelized. They still have to hear the gospel.  That is where we come in.

3. Election is not fair because God did not choose everyone

Why didn’t God elect everyone? Why doesn’t God choose to save everyone?  This is the wrong question.  God was not obligated to save anyone.  We are sinners.

Sinners deserve judgment for their sins, but he is not obligated to save anyone.  If he saves anyone, it is a matter of grace.  If God chose none and punished everyone, that would be fair.  He would be perfectly righteous to do that.  None of us deserve salvation.[2]

Applications for Today

1) Worship

The whole point of this chapter is to lead us to worship.  Election is to the praise of the glory of His grace.  The verse before it is all about blessing God who has blessed us.

Instead of Christians rejoicing over this doctrine, they argue and fight over the chapter.  Today, it does not cause worship among Christians. It just causes division and arguments.

In Paul’s day, Christians did not argue and fight over the doctrine.  This doctrine caused believers to worship God.  Paul blessed God because of election.  When was the last time that you praised God that He chose you in Christ before the foundation of the world?  Most Christians have never done this, not even once.

2) Holiness

God did not choose us just to save us but to make us holy after we are saved. Ephesians 1:4 says, “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be HOLY and BLAMELESS in his sight” (NIV).  Holiness is one of the purposes of election.

The doctrine of election is not an excuse to sin. Paul did not teach that you are predestined to salvation, so it does not matter how you live.  People who say that only give evidence that they are not elect, because the purpose of election is holiness, which brings us to the next point.

3) Assurance

It is possible to know right now if you elect.  Many teach that it is not possible and that you cannot have an assurance of your salvation but the Bible teaches that you can have assurance.  It is possible to know that you name is written in the Book of Life.

I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. 3 Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life. (Philippians 4:2-3 NIV).

How did Paul know that they were in the Book of Life?  He has never seen the book.  He knew because he knew that they were saved.  If you have put your faith in Christ for salvation, you can know your name is in the Book of Life but there is another way to know and that is by your life.  Salvation results in a changed life.

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.

8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:5-10 NIV).

The KJV says to do it to make your calling and election sure.  Our calling and election can be made sure and it is made sure by a changed life.  People who do not think it matters how they live because they are predestinated only show everyone that they are not elect.  We can confirm our calling and election by a godly life.

[1] https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/god-has-chosen-us-in-him-before-the-foundation-of-the-earth

[2] https://www.limerickreformed.com/blog/2017/4/20/predestination-thats-not-fair

23 Responses to Election: Fact or Fiction

  1. Shelby says:

    Ok so I am confused. I am not a Calvinist and I don’t see myself ever being one, but I am interest in the topic. So are you saying being predestined means you will be saved for sure or that you have the chance to be saved? I mean if someone is predestined but die before they are saved, they would still go to hell. So if Jesus died for the world, which would be everyone. Then everyone is predestined and those who don’t get saved used there free will to turn there back on Christ.

    The article is clear and easy to follow but unless what I said above is what you are saying then predestination and free will are contradictions. Its like saying some are hand picked to go to hell and never had a chance to begin with.

    • admin says:

      Shelby, I guess the issue is not about being a Calvinist or an Arminian. It is believing what God says in His Word. Which of the five points in my post do you question? All have biblical support. Being predestinated means you will be saved but you are not saved until you accept Christ. Everyone is not predestinated because, as I point out in my first point, predestination by definition is selective. everyone is not predestinated. Nor will everyone be saved. That is universalism.

  2. Shelby says:

    Armenians have biblical support for there beliefs as well. And you are right if you believe in god why does it matter, you are saved. I myself have seen many instances in life where Calvinism could be true. But what about the people who want to be saved but fear they are not because they have doubts? Should they give up?
    Thank you for the quick response by the way :)

    • admin says:

      Before I answer your question, tell me a little more about your spiritual background. How old are you? Are you a christian? If so, how long have you been a Christian? How did you become a believer?

  3. Shelby says:

    27, I think I am, I have claimed to be my entire life but apparently there’s a difference between knowing God is real and believing it so now I don’t now .

    • admin says:

      27 is the same age of some of my kids. One more question. Do you currently attend church anywhere regularly? If so, what denomination? I will have some answers for you. I just need to know your background and where you are coming from in order to answer your question.

  4. Shelby says:

    Sorry for such a short reply, I was using my phone in the car. Ok so Like I said Im 27, I think I am a christian and have claimed to be all my life. I have been told so many times that knowing and believing are so different that I really don’t know if I am or not.
    I feel stuck in the middle a little bit I guess. For example, when I am talking about my beliefs I get very defensive, if someone says well that’s just your belief my response would be “Well its true but whatever” I get angry when people try to say something in the bible is not true. Yet on the other hand, I don’t want to be overexposed to it either, there is a bible study show starting on foxnews I think I would rather eat dirt than watch it, though I will listen to sermons on the radeo in my car sometimes I dont know why that dosent bother me.
    I love one on one conversations but when people say something like “I just feel the Holy Spirit in me” And they are overly emotional I just roll my eyes. I don’t know if its the overly emotional reaction that bothers me or the topic. I really cant tell.
    Or my fav band is Queen, God gave Freddie Mercury a gift, I have even met people who think I am less of a Christian for liking his music because he was gay. I don’t know what his sexual orientation has to do with me, but if other Christians think that, could there really be something wrong with me for liking Hammer to fall? Or are they overthinking it a little.
    I mean you can take religion to far can’t you? Like the westboro baptist church who think everyone is going to hell except them.
    I like revenge movies, the bad guy gets what he deserves, but I know its fake, I would not want people getting revenge in the real world, I mean can you imagin what this world would be like.
    Now am I close to saying I don’t believe in god Absolutley NOT!!! But I do know that on most days my faith isn’t even the size of a mustard seed. And that almost brings me to tears. I don’t want to be lost. But I don’t know if I can be saved either. I find it almost impossible to believe and I don’t know why.
    Then there are people who say that the ones who are so sure of there salvation are not saved, yet we are told in the same breath that we can know we are saved…well that’s not helpful is it.
    That’s why I also posted a question on the B of the HS article, maby that stray thought was a way for god to get rid or me. As stated I’m not a Calvinist but I see why some are, and if its true, why should I even try, isn’t my struggle proof I cant be saved. After all there are plenty of so called Christians in hell.

    • admin says:


      Thanks for the reply. It would not be profitable to argue about whether Calvinism is true or not. You also have no need to worry about whether you have committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. You have not. You are also right that there are many professing Christians who are completely crazy. Many of the things you mentioned have nothing to do with salvation. They are matters of personal taste (e.g., the style of music you like).

      The crux of the matter is this. You say that you find it almost impossible to believe. What do you find impossible to believe? I am trying to understand what you mean there. You say that you do not know if you are saved and you do not know if you CAN be saved.

      Why do you think that you cannot be saved? Paul called him “the chief of sinners” (I Timothy 1:15) and he got saved. Your sins are not worse than his. He was a former terrorist and persecutor of Christians. God can save anyone.

      The most important question to answer is this: If you were to die today and stand before a holy God, would he send you to heaven or to hell? Do you believe that you are a sinner or do you think that you are basically good? Have you ever personally Christ as your personal Savior. Have you ever acknowledged that you are a sinner and personally asked Jesus to save you?

  5. Shelby says:

    I do not go to church. Moms from one denomination, friends want me to go to there church. It’s just to controversial so I just don’t go. That’s what drew me to ask questions my situation is similar to the first person who asked a question on the b of the ya post. My mother m is Mormon and I’m not

  6. Shelby says:

    So I know you haven’t responded to the other two posts yet but I have been thinking about it and I think the best way to describe how I feel about god is ‘indifference’ I’m not sure if its 100% accurate but its the best word I have come up with. And I don’t want to be that way but if I don’t want to be, then why am I?
    And I noticed that I didn’t make the last post very clear, I noticed another girl from the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit post has a similar back story to mine, she was raised Mormon and so was I, though my bible class was baptist I think.

  7. Shelby says:

    What do I find hard to believe…..That hes real. I don’t want to admit it, but sometimes its like trying it believe in santa. And its not because hes such a big thing that he cant possible be real. I don’t know why its hard for me to believe. I think a small part of it is because I never have any kind of emotional reaction to him at all. I have never been a very emotional person & maybe that’s just how I am but the only time I have any type of feeling for him at all is when watching a movie about Jesus. That’s it. and I look at people who feel him so strongly, and all I think is “O please shut up” and I feel like I am missing something and I try to run and hide from it. Not only because I fell I am missing something but because they sound ridiculous, its how I must sound to non believers when Im talking about him so why I feel that way when others talk about him I don’t know, as I said in the previous post it could be there emotional reaction to it, It seams over the top but I know it isn’t.
    If I died now…..I would be in hell. And I don’t know how to fix that. I don’t want that. But what I can’t figure out is when or how I became so broken.
    I know or at least think there is a heaven and hell but at the same time I cant help but feel that when I die I am going to be incredibly surprised that those places exist. If I have real faith I shouldn’t be surprised should I?
    If belief is the key to salvation then I don’t have it, that’s why I don’t know if I can be saved. I just don’t know why its so hard to believe in something.
    Do I believe I am a sinner or basically good. I believe I am a sinner. I also think I am a good person but only by human standards.

    Like I said in a previous post, I’m not a Mormon and I will not go to a Mormon church, I don’t know if I would go to church anyway. I just hate being preached to from a podium. I learn nothing and I just want to fall asleep, I like talking about scripture one on one but there are no small groups near me I could join.
    Have I asked Christ to save me, every day, But there just words if there is no faith behind them. An atheist could ask that and nothing would happen. I am not an atheist I don’t even think I am agnostic, but I don’t feel like a believer either, and again I am not an overly emotional person (most of the time) so maybe my main problem is that I leave to much up to “feeling” or I assume I should have this huge burst of emotion when maybe I shouldn’t measure my faith by how much of an emotional reaction I have, but I can’t help but think and feel that true faith is a gift I have yet to receive.
    Are there people in hell who really wanted to believe and couldn’t? Or is anyone who is want him going to find him?

    • admin says:


      I am going to get to your last response but it has so many layers. Before I give you my answer, I need you to answer one more question. You say you have trouble believing but what exactly do you have trouble believing?

      You do not have trouble believing that you are a sinner. You do not have trouble believing in heaven or hell. Here is my question. What do you believe about Jesus? Do you believe that he was just a man or more than a man? Do you believe that He is God? Do you believe that He rose from the dead or is still buried somewhere in the Middle East?

      Do you have trouble believing in the Jesus of the Bible or do you have trouble believing that God actually exists? You say that you are not an atheist or an agnostic, so I assume that the latter is not the case. This will help me a little know how to answer you. I am still trying to figure out your specific situation. What do you believe about Jesus?

  8. Shelby says:

    Well I wish it was an easy question to answer, I believe he is much more than a man, and yes he rose from the dead. I don’t have trouble believing he is the Jesus in the bible. However, with all that said some days I do have trouble believing god exists sometimes. As incredibly dumb as it sounds, Its really a day to day thing. Today I could say god exists, other days I seriously have doubts. Maybe believers have doubts to and my doubts don’t mean anything. And while I am not an athiest, my faith is so small I think that one convincing argument from an Athiest is all it would take to turn me forever. Maybe my problem isn’t a lack of faith but its just to week.

    And unanswered questions are a big problem for me too. Some days I feel like there are to many unanswered questions to believe and I know logically there are some questions that there are no answered to, Just an example, why did he create hell anyway.. now Im not arguing weather its fair that hell exists, it wouldn’t matter if it was fair or not, but……why? What was the point. There couldn’t be a better way of punishing someone then burning for all eternity? Things like that. Or why not have sex before marriage, Why cant you be in a homosexual realtionship, why not get a tattoo, Now these are examples, I have no tattoos, I’m straight and I am a virgin due to my beliefs but they are the best examples I could come up with. I know the answer is “because god said so” But I never found that to be a good reason to do what my mother wanted me to I guess as an adult I find “because I said so” to still be a bad answer to the “why” qustion.

    I guess I find a lack of logic in religion, and I for the most part am a logical person. one reason I like Been Shapiro so much is that he uses logic for his arguments not religion. And it helps me feel grounded and helps me feel like I believe a little more. Even if he is Jewish.

    I hope that helps.

  9. Shelby says:

    I just noticed that last paragraph was confusing. I like how Ben Shapiro uses logic not only in politics but when he talks about his beliefs. He has the ability to make Religion seam logical when some times (at least to me) it isn’t. And when its set in logic it makes it easier for me to have faith in my own Christian beliefs. I randomly bring him up since he is the only person I have ever herd use logic when talking about religion and I like the realistic approach to it. Sorry for the confusion if I caused any.

    • admin says:

      It is funny that you mention Ben Shapiro. My son who just graduated from college with an English degree is a big Ben Shapiro fan. I agree completely with you on the importance of logic and reason. In fact, there are logical answers to every one of the questions you raised.

      There are reasons for every one of the commands God gives us. He does not give us irrational commands. Someone said that when God says, “Don’t,” what He really means is “Don’t hurt yourself.” That is what happens whenever people live outside of His will in His revealed Word.

      One specific example is the prohibition of sex before marriage. God did not give us the command because He is against sex or because he does not want us to have any fun or he does not want us to be happy. He is not against sex. He was the one who created it but He created it exclusively for marriage.

      That also answers the question about homosexuality which you raised. What is wrong with it? If sex was started by man, it could be changed by man and redefined any way we want to but sex was not started by man but by God. He was the one who created it. It was His idea in the first place and He designed it to be enjoyable. He designed it in Scripture for marriage. For married couples it is actually a command. He actually commands people to have fun.

      Going back to my original point, when God says, “Don’t,” He means “Don’t hurt yourself.” People who follow the commands of Jesus in Scripture live much healthier and happier lives than those who don’t.

      You say that you do not have any problem believing in Jesus but have difficulty sometimes believing in God. I can give you three logical arguments which prove the existence of God. I can do it in a matter of minutes. Will they convince the most militant atheist? No. Some people are so closed minded that they are not open to any evidence. As the saying goes, “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”

      I will leave you with three very simply argument for the existence of God. They go like this.

      ARGUMENT ONE – The world exists, therefore God exists.

      It is a biblical argument. Paul uses this argument in Romans 1. Go outside and look at nature. Look at the sky, the stars and the planets. They all prove that God exists. The Psalmist says that the heavens declare the glory of God (Psalm 19:1). Paul in fact says that the evidence is so clear that people ho reject it are “without excuse” (Romans 1:19-20).

      If God does not exist, there did the world come from? There is no real answer. Evolutionists will say that some particles came together and there was a big explosion. There are a number of problems with this. Explosions do not bring order but disorder. On top of that, where did all of the participles come from in the first place? They had to have been created. Those who say that they do not believe that God is eternal must say by necessity that matter is eternal but that is refuted by science. Science rejects that hypothesis.

      ARGUMENT TWO – Morals exist, therefore God exists.

      Why are certain things right and certain things wrong. Why is rape wrong. Why is murder wrong? Why is child abuse wrong? Why was the holocaust wrong? If there is no God, there is no absolute standard of right and wrong. You can do what you think is right and I can do what I think is right but no one can say with complete authority that I am right and you are wrong. Morals would be relative and completely subjective.

      ARGUMENT THREE – There is design in the universe and design proves that there was a designer.

      You find a watch in the woods, you can tell that someone made it. It did not make itself. You look at a computer and you can tell that someone made it. There was a computer programmer. In every cell of your body is something called DNA. It is a specific code that is unique to you. It is coded information. The question is who wrote the code? There is evidence of all kinds of design in the world. The Bible says that we are fearfully and wonderfully made (Psalm 139:14)

      We could talk in person for several hours about some of these topics. I may follow up with other comments later. Hope this gives you something to think about to start the conversation.

  10. Shelby says:

    The 3 arguments that you mention are pretty much the only reason I believe. Grounded in realism. I do have a few questions but I know this digresses from the topic of your article so if you don’t want to answer them here I get it.

    I just have a hard time coming to terms with somethings. As I mentioned before homosexuality, as I said I am straight so this isn’t a problem for me but this is in the news so often (that and climate change) that I really cant help but wonder about it. And it has touched my life.
    I have a friend who is gay, he has liked boys since he hit puberty, he wasn’t encouraged to like boys, but he knew what he liked from a young age, he didn’t choose to like boys, so why if he is predisposed to like boys is that such a big no no. I get that we were all born into sin because Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit, that’s why we are all sinners and would go to hell without gods grace. For me its that obvious, but it dose seam like in liking the same sex he is put on a road that is harder then the rest of us have to travel, almost like he was set up to fail. I don’t believe in conversion therapy. There is no proof it works and if it was a choice to be gay then you wouldn’t need therapy to begin with.

    Divorce is a big no no in the bible except in a case of sexual immorality (if I read it correctly) I don’t hear people going around calling people who got remarried adulterers if there first spouse is still living,
    Is it not as big a deal or is it just that society doesn’t care about divorce as much as we should? Or women like my grandmother who was beating and put into the hospital several times, by more than one of her husbands. Well getting beat to a pulp had nothing to do with sexual immorality but I would still find it a pretty good reason to get a divorce.

    I remember a special called our america or something like that, I didn’t get to watch it but it was a woman following a few gay men, some chose God over there sexual preference thinking they had to to be saved, others loved the lord and trusted there faith in Jesus would save them and just went with there sexual preference. well if they are true believers then why would they go to hell? Or will they? Faith not actions saves us but can our actions alone damn us?

    I know we suffer a mortal death because of our sins, (according to my old bible teacher) But is it our sins that send us to hell or is hell just full of people who didn’t believe? As pointed out before there are a lot of so called Christians in hell but aren’t they there because they didn’t really believe? Are they the kind of Christians who go to church every Sunday then go to bed every night with there partner while not married to them? Or is that me juts being to judgmental?

    What of people who get tattoos if they don’t think its against Scripture then will they be punished for it? Or just get fewer rewards in heaven?

    Again I know this is a complete digression from the topic of the article, my apologizes and as said I understand if this isn’t the place for it.

    • admin says:


      You mention four different topics in your last post. I will try to deal with them one by one. When it comes to divorce, God is against it as the general rule. He is pro marriage. He says that He hates divorce and it is a big problem in our society with the high divorce rates, even among professing Christians. Having said that there are exceptions to the rule.

      Sexual immorality is a reason for divorce because it breaks the marriage vow when you become one with someone sexually who is not your spouse, although some have been able to work through that problem. Forgiveness is ultimate goal with genuine repentance and change. It is not possible with serial adulterers who refuse to repent. I agree with you that if someone beats their spouse to a pulp that would also be breaking the marriage vow.

      There are exceptions to the divorce rule but the exceptions only prove the rule and yes many Christians are hypocritical when it comes to divorce. They act like it is the unpardonable sin. In some churches, if you commit murder and repent, you can serve in the church but not if you are divorced. That is simply ludicrous.
      Tattoos are a matter of personal conviction. As Paul would say, “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind” (Romans 14:5).

      Some Christians do not have a problem with them. Others see them as a violation of the prohibition in Leviticus. I tend to agree with the latter. If someone got a tattoo in the past and later felt convicted that is wrong, that person could still be forgiven. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness (I John 1:9 NIV).

      When it comes to homosexuality, you can look at it from two completely different viewpoints. There is the secular view and the biblical view. The secular view is that it is completely normal and natural. People are born that way and cannot change. The biblical view is that it is not normal and natural but is instead sinful. God created sex for a man and a woman. The first two humans were Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. The whole race would have died out if that were the case. The issue here becomes do we believe what the Bible says or not or do we only believe the parts we like? Is the Bible the inspired Word of God or just a fallible human book?

      The problem with rejecting conversion therapy is that Paul says in I Corinthians that some used to be homosexuals but are no longer homosexuals. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (I Corinthians 6:11 ESV). In addition, there are testimonies of people who have changed, so if you reject the therapy, what do you do with all of the testimonies? Are they all lying?

      You asked if professing Christians who are practicing homosexuals can be saved, because people are saved by faith. Paul answers that in I Corinthians 6:9-10. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (ESV). This leaves no room for that position.

      That verse also condemns heterosexuals who go to church on Sunday and live with their partners the rest of the week. They also would not be in heaven. Not everyone who says that they believe, genuinely believe. If there is no change in their life, it is a definite sign that they are NOT saved. On the other hand, anyone can be saved who genuinely repents.

      Finally, you ask if God sends people to hell because of their sins or because they do not believe. The answer is the former. God sends people to people because of one reason only and that is sin. He is infinitely holy and He must judge sin. If God let sinners into heaven, he would not be loving. That is the biblical view. The problem with the other view is this: It gives the idea that people are okay until they hear the message about Jesus and if they reject it, they are lost. Those who do not believe in Jesus will be condemned. Those who accept Him are saved and will have their names written in the Book of Life. Don’t you want your name written in heaven?

      Hope some of this helps. Don’t know if it answers every question.

  11. Shelby says:

    It does help. I have a question about the last one. I understand that sin is why we go to hell, but being saved doesn’t stop us from sinning. Even saved people sin everyday, so is it just asking forgiveness for our sins every day kind of like how we are tought to pray every night when we are kids.

    • admin says:

      There are two kinds of forgiveness: one for believers and one for unbelievers. One is the forgiveness of a Father and one is the forgiveness of a Judge. What am I talking about? When a person accepts Christ and gets saved, he or she is forgiven of all of their sins. That is done once. It affects our eternal destiny. We sin daily and need to confess those sins, not to affect whether we go to heaven but to affect our relationship with God. It affects our fellowship with God. This type of confession must be done repeatedly. It is the confession of I John 1:9. Does this help?

  12. Shelby says:

    As for homosexuality, I think You are completely correct it is a sin and the only answer is to turn away from it.The question what to do with the testimonies of those who say conversion therapy works. Yes I do say they are lying. I believe if people turn away from this sin it is because they have come to the conclusion that they can either follow Jesus or burn for eternity, I think they choose Jesus. But do I think it works as far as actually not liking the same sex all of a sudden. No I don’t.

    We all must turn away from sin, I don’t question your answer at all, it just makes me so sad when I look at good people who have to battle this sin that the rest of us will never have to face.

    Its like watching a race, all of humanity at the same start line with 10 hurdles to clear to make it to the finish line, and for some reason some have 11 hurdles just to make it harder for them. because this isn’t just any ol sin. It not choosing to tell the truth instead of lying, or choosing to stay faithful to your spouse, its something that is so engraved into who we are. It seams so unfair. But maybe looking for fairness is to political of way of looking at it when its a spiritual problem.

    I don’t want to commit blasphemy if I haven’t already so Ill just say it seams really not chill to allow people to be born that way. I could say that about hell existing at all though.

    People in today’s society raise there children with this image of Santa when they tell them about god. He isn’t. Maybe parents are afraid that if kids know hes more like a military dad they wont want to follow him when they grow up so they leave out a lot, only tell there kids the kind sweet things about him. Kind from our limited human perspective that is. But when we grow up and we do realized he isn’t Santa. it is soul shattering!

    • admin says:


      I cannot speak about homosexuality form personal experience. I do not have background as a therapist or psychiatrist. I really do not know that much as conversion therapy. I do not claim to be an expert here. What I do know is God’s Word. Don’t take offense at what I am going to say here but it applies in this situation.

      In Mathew 22, Jesus gave a powerful rebuke to some of the religious leaders of his day. He said, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God” (Matthew 22:29 NIV). That is what I would say to you.

      From a human perspective, you are absolutely right. Expecting people to change on their own or simply by their own will power is impossible. It will never happen but I believe in the power of God. I believe in miracles.

      I believe that God can completely change people. He can change the way they think and He can change the way they act. They are all kinds of irrefutable testimony stories of this happening in all areas, not just sexuality. There are thousands of stories of people whose lives have been radically transformed by the gospel.

  13. Shelby says:

    No offence taken at all. I get what you are saying. I agree that the lord can work miracles. If he wanted to change your sexual orientation it would be done in the blink of an eye. I haven’t seen any miracles personally but I don’t deny that they happen. I know there are people who would rather be alone then go against the lord. I just cant understand why he doesn’t change them to. Is there reason for some to suffer or do we assume that they don’t believe enough if they don’t change. The apostles lives were not perfect all but 1 died horribly and the 1 that didn’t was tortured if I remember correctly. So its not that belief makes life easy, just possible.

    Again thank you for taking your time to talk to me. :)

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